I've been meaning to update you with my thoughts on the US elections - but I've been on the road all week, addressing packed meetings in Brighton, Oxford, Manchester, Bristol, Swindon and Leicester. Once again, I've been overwhelmed by the enthusiasm of people for this campaign.
The results of Tuesday's elections in the States are a watershed. The message of the American people is clear - there needs to be a major change of direction on Iraq. Just as in Britain, people in the US feel that they have been ill-advised, misled, and ignored and with the death toll in Iraq mounting on a daily basis they are saying enough is enough.
These election results have not only damaged Bush, but they mean that Blair is now totally isolated in the international community.
Unless we heed the people's verdict in the US, there is every chance that the British electorate will similarly punish Labour at the next election for our role in the chaos of Iraq.
I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate Bernie Sanders for his successful election to the US Senate. This is the first time in American history that a socialist has been elected to the Senate. Bernie opposed the war in Iraq, opposed the Patriot Act and is a support of free health care. The election of Senator Bernie Sanders shows that there is a growing demand in the US for an alternative to the disastrous policies of Bush's administration.
59 Comments:
Dear John,
If people like you become leader of the Party, then people like me will leave it. Your brand of Bandwagon politics belongs to the Daily mail and the Tories, whom Labour Policies of the 80's kept in power for so long and did such Damage. Your agenda is essentially to return to the 80's and let a male Thatcher win over the vital centre ground of politics and therefore the country.
I was born in 1987, when Mrs. Thatcher was unpopular and hated by more people than those who liked her. Despite her government's incompetance and unpopularity, the first 10 years of my life were under a Tory government, and it wasnt because they did a good job- it was because Labour was unelectable to a country of small "c" conservatives, I dont believe you have learnt those lessons.
I also feel that your leadership would be undermined by the hypocracy of you asking for loyalty of your MPs when you have shown such little for the present leadership. How can you ask for votes, when you yourself have prefered to vote with the Tories on every substantive matter of the Last 10 years? Please think about the way you vote and whether you are leadership material at all- you may be speaking to packed halls but if the hall is the sixe of a telephone booth and your audience are falling asleep then that isnt good news.
Thanks for reading, time will tell if you have listened.
Arjun - it's you who needs to learn your history.
Labour was in opposition in the 1980s because of a number of reasons. Until the SDP split (that was the right of the party, not the left splitting) Labour was ahead in the polls. It's fair to say that if right wing defectors hadn't been so self-indulgent, Labour might have won in 1983 and Thatcher only served 4 years.
Labour was represented throughout most of the 80s by Kinnock - who Blair describes as the architect of New Labour - he was also a complete clown who no one took seriously.
To say John has voted with the Tories is laughable! Who voted with the Tories to go to war? New Labour. Who voted with the Tories to introduce trust schools? New Labour.
If the Tories choose to oppose student fees or ID cards (which the Tories proposed in 1994) for opportunistic reasons, how does that discredit the principled opposition of others?
Also, John is loyal to the Party, Rail renationalisation, fourth option in council housing, restoration of the earnings link to pensions, an end of NHS privatisation and restored trade union rights are all Labour Party policy, as voted for by conference. It's New Labour that's disloyal!
A return to the 80s - Arjun mate, you were 3 when the 80s finished and don't seem to have learned anything about them since. Arrogance and ignorance are an unhealthy mix
John, members of the party like Arjun do not truly belong in Labour. The stance on the issues you are taking is admirable. Anybody accusing you of voting WITH the Tories does not understand our parliamentary democracy. The correct and formal name for backbenchers is actually a private member, emphasising the importance of the individual member above and beyond party tittle-tatter.
John, as Tom rightly points out, is not standing on a platform of some renegade MP out to destroy the party. Rather he puts himself forward with proposals which have been democratically voted on by the party membership, which is frankly more than can be said for Foundation Hospitals, Trust Schools, the Iraq debacle and NHS privatisation.
What John needs to do is concentrate on sticking the course and staying with it. Should John win, we’ll see how long it takes the unprincipled careerist Blairites to try and convince us they supported him all along!
This won't surprise you Arjun, but I'm afraid I think your wrong on this one.
As both Tom and Paul have accurately pointed out, John stands as leader on a platform voted for by conference. All the polling data demonstrates that John is fighting for policies which not only Labour activists agree upon, but also the majority of the British people. He is a man of principle, integrity and above all loyalty to the Labour Party. I also disagree with your assessment of the Great British public all being small ‘c’ conservatives. All the polling data demonstrates that John is fighting for policies which not only Labour activists agree upon, but also the majority of the British people. I think if we contrast this with certain pieces of current legislation brought under New Labour, we would see a totally different set of numbers.
If John does win the leadership Arjun, I hope you will stay and work with our democratically elected leader and fight for a more just, tolerant and egalitarian country.
Johnny, the bit about the majority of the British people not being 'small c' conservatives made me laugh.
Let's look at the 20th century. The Conservatives in the 20th century have been in power much longer than Labour.
The Conservatives have served for 56 years with 11 Prime Ministers where as Labour has only served for 25 with 5.
Furthermore, you argue that the Blair government is apostate from the 'true' Labour movement so that means we have in fact only had 4 labour PM's with only 22 years between them and that brings the tory total to 59 years and 12 PM's.
Also... If you accept that Blair is apostate then we have had 27 years of democratically elected conservative government over the last 30 years. So I don't really get your point... In fact I think it is nonsense.
Finally Johnny, Labour had to ajust their stance, producing New Labour to become electable again. In what direction did they ajust their stance? To the center, not the left. If you could produce those numbers that would be great. I'd love to see them.
And, just to Tom... Labour hadn't a hope in hell of beating Thatcher in 1983, not after the Falklands.
This final bit of the post (I promise that it will be.) I'd like to direct towards John McDonnell himself. John, what would you do about the terror threat in this country and how do we deal with the large separationist section of the Muslim community?
Will B - A Young Conservative
I know there are lots of you out there young enough not to remember Thatcherism but who have studied Politics and History and know exactly what happened. I'm only in my thirties so didn't live through it as an adult but she didn't go till I was studying A levels (including Politics) so I do remember how it seemed that everyone's Dad was being made redudant including mine eventaully and all the housing repossessions and I was actually sent a court summons for the poll tax as a student but it turned out that I only had to pay for twenty three days worth, the time they said fell between the end of my A levels and my degree course starting. As I was a student in Westminster where the poll tax was seven pounds a year I only had to pay two fifty or something in this revised bill but it was the prinicple of the thing; I was supposed to pay a reduced amount as a student so I made sure I did. I didn't just pay the seven pounds yearly rate they originally demanded of me as I happened to study in one of the most Tory boroughs in London hence the very low rate. I later have worked in public services long enough to have the first hand operational experience which told me that Tory polices in health and immigration do not work quite simply so why the Blairites have brought them back beats me. It will all cost far more in the long run as well as they don't factor in the costs of things like agency workers to prop up the failing systemns they create and the cost of the high staff turnovers as rats leave the sinking ships! It will all cost far more than anything they can save by outsourcing when all is said and done. Just look at the late accreditation pass fiasos at both Labour and Tory conferences where the police checks had been outsourced and so speakers missed their slots, MPS couldn't get in to the conferences etc etc for a microcosm of this.
It just frightens me that a lot of "young" people only a few years younger than me have been so taken in by Blairism that they unquestioningly believe his protestations that the left is unelectable without thinking for themselves and it is difficult for them havimg not experienced Thatcherism etc first hand. The trouble is that people in their twenties are old enough to be employed in jobs which set the media agenda and they have no terms of reference to refer to in reporting left wing things, the can't remember and may not havec studied Fares Fare and the GLC days etc, they don't remember CND and the Greenham Common Women (though they may have read about it in Adrian Mole).... Perhaps we should produce some badges saying "It's ok to be a socialist" or something!
Anyonew out there who still thinks John's candidacy is loony left should look at his constituency work record as whatever your ideological beliefs you have to work for your community and be pragmatic at times; I hear Nicholas Soames is a good constituency MP on local issues on the same way though to put chalk next to cheese for a moment so it takes all sorts! You have to look at the whole picture in a future leader, not just rule people out on wild supposedly ideologiacal presumptions.
Things that were seen as loony by some in the eighties are now mainstream, who would have though then that civil partnerships would be allowed and gay couples used to have to be refused at Immigration until Labour got in in 97, to name just one issue. When I was a child in the eighties people were still being shot for escaping over the Berlin Wall, the last was in 1983 or 4 I think it was.
New Labour looks to me about ten years out of date now, I foolishly thought Balir might have a redder t-shirt on under the suit at first as after all no governement sticks completely to it's manifesto once elceted, but this one did, the New Labour neo-con one. And so did Bush and we've seen what's happened to him...! - alienating your core vote is not a good idea!
We don't want to lose the election but we will if we keep talking of Cameron as a credible alternative to Blair and don't elect someone who is genuninely Labour, i.e. real Labour in values, modernised in thinking but not sold out to failed money-making policies - now they're een trying to make money out of greening everything up as Bill Clinotn told us at conference.
I'd prefer to take his final pieces of advice instead. He saud we were all "change agents" and we should "stay in the future business!"
John has seen the future and it's left wing!
and shock horror there's nothing wrong with being left wing, in fact it's the most humanitarian position top take which is why many Quakers support Socialists to give but one example as so pacifists. It's ok to strive for our ideal world by for exmaple being pacisifist as ok Utopia is hard to achieve but nothing is acheived if we don't try and as with education or indeed any field the way to win and improve is to raise expectations. Then people rise to meet them.
Give a kid a life coachind book instead of an ASBO and you might get a result.
As for hug a hoody: my small children have beehn given hooded tops since birth, it's just a fashion!I know you can hide behind them to a certain extent and you could make an intersting parallel to the veil debate.... the more people go on about any of article of clothing the more people will want to wear it is all I'll say!
We should look at the person behind the sterotype; I'm stereotyped by some people every time I get behind the pushchair so I sympathise! Everyone including the media should stop stereotyping John and listen to what he is actually saying!
And those so-called Campaign Group MPs who are actively seeking to diminish this campaign ( I won't give them oxygen by saying who they are ) and push for a candidate who won't even get off the starting-block should listen to what the grassroots are saying. They spend too much time in the Westm,inster bubble. Lobby your MP now if you want John to get on the ballot paper.Let's keep the faith and start putting the pressure on now.
Will, not sure that just looking at numbers really tells us anything.
Rather its just a straightforward quantitative anaylsis with no consideration of the facts at the time and any applicable historical setting. One should look from a qualitative point of view with case studies, and take full consideration of the particular PM's at the time, the economic setting, the impact of wars and other variables.
Tom- Your comments about the SDP were strange, if you believe in democracy then how can you say it is unfair for people to leave the Party if they diddnt agree with it. More to the point, surely the Falklands had the winning hand in the 1983 elections- if Labour offering what it did lost heavily against a party in the middle of a recession it caused then what does that say?
Kinnock was indeed Labour Leader for much of the 80s- and started off with the unelectable policies we had and changed them over time- if you were there how comes you dont know this?
You lot are the ones who call Tony Blair a Tory, but when it comes down to the votes John McDonnell votes in the same Lobby as them. and as to be expected, you missed the point about being loyal to the party. perhaps you could answer my specific point about that.
By the way, I diddnt need to have lived in Roman times to know what happened, and since it is rememberance weekend, are you saying I should not remember what was done in history when i wasnt there. It seems you may have been there, but havent understood it's lessons.
Paul- who exactly are you that you think the Labour Party is under the ownership of you and people of your train of thought? I thought this was a democratic organisation open to everyone? And by the way, if Backbenchers are supposed to be free to vote on conscience, are you saying John will get rid of whipping? perhaps you dont understand how our democracy works if you dont know about whips and Party discipline.
The fact is that the so called loony left policies which have been enacted UNDER THIS GOVERNMENT is a reminder- you can have your "principals" but without power how can you effect anything? Tony Blair got us into power and kept us there- under your way we will be unelectable and never be in power to effect a change. Would you rather a Labour Government which did most of what you wanted or a tory one which did nothing- if you dont realise that's the choice then you arent living in the real world.
I have decided to take the advice of anon. poster who was generous with his time. let me say why I disagree with John Mcdonnell on what he has said- withdrawl of British soldiers would be a disaster- let Iraq fall in disrepair? we should have a phased withdreawl and allow time for Iraqi people to put their own people in place- not just cut and run. I think the bandwagon is truly rolling in Afghanistan- John would like us to leave the Afghanis to the mercy of the Taliban- DISGRACEFUL. We must never allow people to fall under such vile peoplever again, we should not leave the door open for people worse than the Nazis to come back. I cannot understand why anyone would withdraw from Afghanistan- it isnt the same as Iraq.
Ending privatisation of public services is a meaningless phrase- the last time I looked the NHS was free and so is Compulsory Education.
Minimum wage would not exist without this Government and dont forget it. And "real minimum wage" is a rediculously Arbitrary figure. the minimum wage should be about giving the poorest in society a fair wage- the poeple who suffer and cant afford high minimum wages are small businesses- does John want to put them out of business?
A WORKING energy policy means we look at more than one source of energy, and We should have a proper debate about Nuclear- I broadly agree with john on this, but then again who dosent?
I hate it when politicians come out with these grand spending statements- where is the money coming from John? I would love to raise the state pension, but where is the money coming from?
lets not play ideology with Education- the BEST education service in the world is what we must aim for. We can argue about tuition fees for hours ad it still boils down to this- it isnt a crippling debt because the repayment is miniscule and stps after 25 years, plus you ONLY pay for it when you earn more than £15,000 and finally there would be a bigger blach hole in university finances- and again where is the money coming from?
The final point is unfleshed nonsense- you're learning from Cameron. I suggest you read "100 Labour achievements" by USDAW. Are these all policies or aspirations?
Iraq War - vote loser
Privatising health services - vote loser
Privatising school services - vote loser
Public sector pay freezes - vote loser
And you have the cheeck to say, on the track to a New Labour thrashing at the polls, that "under your way we will be unelectable"?
Wake up.
As for voting in the same lobbies, which issue are you talking about? The Tories voted with the government on most of the vile privatisation bills which will affect thousands of people across the government. Are you talking about the Iraq enquiry bill, on which John and other left wingers have been consistent and the Tories have opportunistically joined them in opposing the government at this late stage?
*"across the country", I meant to say, obviously*
"Will, not sure that just looking at numbers really tells us anything.
Rather its just a straightforward quantitative anaylsis with no consideration of the facts at the time and any applicable historical setting. One should look from a qualitative point of view with case studies, and take full consideration of the particular PM's at the time, the economic setting, the impact of wars and other variables."
Not at all. The numbers where adding to the discussion. Traditionally this country is small c conservative. Let's look at the second world war.
I would argue that it is not just the more well off who are conservative (they naturally will be.) I'm talking also about the working classes. Take WW2, Union men where ripping up their union cards and putting in long, long, long hours at work to help the war effort. If that isn't conservativism in action I don't know what is. Also take Northern Ireland. The vast majority of the people are working class and the Unionist working class are almost all small c conservatives. Supporting nationalism, opposing immigration, supporting individualism, supporting a tough on crime attitude... It's all there.
Even our institutions, our culture is conservative to a degree. Look at the Monarchy, the PALACE of Westminster and the CoE. All Tory and are perceived as such.
Why do you think white working class voters are switching from Labour to the BNP?! Because they are all small c cons.
Furthermore, you cannot dismiss the data over the last 30 years. 18 years of Tory government and 9 of pseudo-Labour government. Only three of those 30 are old labour term years. Also you cannot ignore the fact that Thatcher is still extremely popular, despite what you say about her supposedly damaging policies. You cannot say that the future is left wing considering the last 30 years and what is currently going on in today’s world. Conservatives elected in Canada, Dems swing to the right to win mid terms, Labour swing to the right in the 90’s to become electable, the conservative government in Australia continue to rule, support for the far right is rising, Labour party membership at an all time low here in the UK, conservative dominate the photosphere, etc, etc, etc.
In my opinion anyone who seriously thinks the majority of the British public is left wing is deluding himself. You’ll never win with McDonnell.
What an insulting diatribe about the British working class. It's too banal to treat with any seriousness but I'll just suggest that you do some more research into the role played by the unions during WW2.
Lets just remember who the people turned to after WWII, when they needed an NHS, a functioning economy, the welfare state...if I recall it was a Labour government. However much New Labour and the Tories battle, these key institutions are still there.
"Why do you think white working class voters are switching from Labour to the BNP?! Because they are all small c cons." So does that mean at the next election all the racists will be able to switch back to Cameron's small 'c' conservatives lite?
I did an anon post as I felt like it but I am female note please Arjun!
I think some people in this country have forgotten what left wing actually means, they say they want to save the NHS and their local services such as my local hospital in Wycombe bu then they go and vote for the Tories who would have made the same cuts! I won't go into ideology now but I believe there is a website it may even be somewhere of Yougov, I can't remember where you can put in your answers to some questions and it will tell you if you are left wing or right wing and how far along the scale in either direction. If anyone knows the title of the website can they remind me! We should all take the test and I think the results will be interesting! If you do come out left wing to spell it out you need to vote for MPs like John not for any New Labour or Tory MPs, never mind what their party label says you need to look at their policies as you would in the US where of course a Southern Democrat could be close in views to a liberal Republican.
I understand the small business argument as my Dad has one but really it dosen't stand up as I'm afraid if a business can only exixt by paying poverty wages it probably shouldn't have been financed by the bank in the first place, or it should just remain a sideline for the owner until things pick up and he/she can afford to take on staff, the trouble is people tend to be seduced by tv progs and mags into thinking they can do anything that they have a right to make a profit at any cost, I think we were seduced by all the property programmes into buying somewhere a bit expensive for us so I can't say I haven't made mistakes myself! We do have to have high expectations in life as our expectations tend to fulfill themselves (see the Life Coaching books, Fiona Harrold's are excellent and Noel Edmonds "cosmic energy" theories are really just a slightly wackier take on them -no comment! He's right though that high expectations bring good results and if we always pander to the lowest common denominator as the Tories would we don't get the Reaganite "trickle down effect" where the poor are supposed to eventually benefit from the rich grabbing everything we just get an even greater gap between rich and poor.
For instance organic food is actually just normal food and so healthy to eat. Industrialsied food is not "normal" it is chemical as Andrew Collins explains in his books, but organic has now taken on a "middle class" image in quarters like The Sun and so inequality reigns as working class people are told it's too expensive for them when in fact you save loads on medicines if you feed your kids organic as they are rarely ill. As for price don't forget that the organinic/fairtrade clothing companies also have sales/stock clearances etc - I've just seen some female t-shirts for £2.50 on an eco website! So if we create the demand, things will improve. If you expect better things of human nature as Tony Benn told Ali G then you will get good results!
If you look at John's policies you will find they are positvie and contructive as well as econonmically and practically workable, wheras Tory and New Labour ones are based on a negative view of human nature where the deluded masses are told what's best for them by dictators as Hobbes would have put it.
"What an insulting diatribe about the British working class. It's too banal to treat with any seriousness but I'll just suggest that you do some more research into the role played by the unions during WW2."
It's insulting to tell the truth about the conservativism of the people?
[living proof of working class conservativism] I myself come from a working class faimly from working class Belfast and I'm a one nation Tory. [/living proof of working class conservativism]
If you cannot add constructively to the debate, don't bother at all. It makes you look like a fool.
"Lets just remember who the people turned to after WWII, when they needed an NHS, a functioning economy, the welfare state...if I recall it was a Labour government. However much New Labour and the Tories battle, these key institutions are still there."
And let's remember what ideology, what party and who the country turned to in 1979.
Just because we (thankfully) still have the welfare state and the NHS does not mean the country is traditionally a lefty one. I fear your thinking on this is rather narrow, there isn't just the health of the people that is on the national agenda. There is much, much more.
I can see that we are doomed to disagree on this one Johnny. Thanks! and at least you were not rude.... Have a good day!
e10 rifles- unpopular policies which won the last election? The Tories did not vote with labour on the policies I have mentioned. I agree with you about Wills analysis- I propose to ignore them.
Helen I apologise. But I must say I find your analysis perplexing- we should always aim high and aim to achieve the most- the minimum wage is not a poverty pay, especially when you consider it is twice the American rate. What kind of socialists are we if we tell people not to improve their quality of living? the way you make poor people rich isnt by pumping them with benefits- you give them the chance to shine by promoting opportunities for them.
I find your assertion that people who eat organic are never ill is somewhat bizzare- is it one of Mr. McDonnell's policies? I find your closing comments truly strange as I have proven the policies you are supporting have not been costed whatsoever.
Will, I think it is rather difficult to say whether this country is left or right- compared to other cuontries- compared to most of europe, we are rightwing, but compared to America we are a left wing haven- Most US democrats would we entrenched on the right of the Tory party, but are regarded as liberal left in america.
You should compare your left/rightwing position on the basis of domestic policies- and people are broadly in favour of NHS, Welfare state and social attitudes, but are far more rightwing on things like economics and crime. on this basis i said that britain is a small c conservative nation. We had 18 years of rightwing Tory rule, and if you agree with our leftwing comrades that the present government is rightwing, then that proves th point- asccording to them we have had 27 years of rightwing government.
Hi Arjun
for cost analysis of the policies see the LRC website under LEAP section as has already been said on this website
£5 odd per hour does not go far if you have to pay for chilcare at at least four pounds per hour for one or more children does it?
and before you say tax credits personally
I only qualify for twenty pounds a week for two children as I am married, see my other posts which will explain, yes I am married but our income all goes on housing/husband's pension, food, bills etc so no chance for me to pay off my debts as I've explained b4 on this site until I can find something with a professional wage again which we can fit in with the kids or until universal free childcare is introduced as the former communist countries had.
Of course we don't want to kill off enterprise but we should have a min wage of about seven fifty an hour I believe is the guide for what peopple can actually live on; people earving less than this\ are\having to be subbed by the\tax\credit systemn anyway so your argumemt dosem't stand up.Ethical companies will be\the ones that survive from now on as\consumers will demand this
my posts may be quick as like now I may be holding a child at same who is wriggly so I'll stop soon, can't always put the\whole argument here\due to lack of time\and havung to type with one\hand.
on organic remember people who grew\ up before industrialised farming came in were organic so to speak but now kids internal organs\are being exposed to pesticides etc while they are\ still forming and it does have a negative effect I've read see something like the\soil association website if you want info, LRC does support more organic farming yes, bettter for environment and animal welfare too. I went organic while\pregnant, you can look up food additives on the net these days, or if you are\a chemist you would not add sodium benzoate for example to homemade\lemonade but it's there in commercial drinks except organic despite risks of things like\asthma and such additives like\aspartame\ and the\rest\generally being toxic. Organic is really my shorthnad for eco, ethical and fairtrade which organic usually is\ as\well.
Did you all watch Spooks tonight featuring the threat of an environmental Cold War? Very apt with the neo-cons in power though obviously written b4 thr Dems won the US elections. There are already many environmental refugees around the worldin real life as the Refugee Project and MPs like John are aware and have pointed out.
I'm off to look up Bernie Sanders' website.
will_b - I can't really believe you thought that was rude. Sorry for having offended your delicate sensibilities. To reduce everything to saying that a class is leftwing or rightwing is ridiculous. The same country elected Attlee and, only a few decades later, Thatcher. One must make the arguments for the policies one believes in. Also, you still need to find out more about Ernie Bevin and the TUC in WW2. We could never have won the war without the unions.
Arjun - any Labour government could have won the last three elections. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the electorate loves rail privatisation, PFI in hospitals and the Iraq war just because we beat a party which was even more in favour of them.
helen- £5 an hour s a damn sight better than most countries in the world, rather than dismissing it you should praise it. The fact is that Yes, it is of course difficult to live on a low income- that's the nature of it, gbut I would rather lie on a low income than be unemployed because the cos of Labour is too high. As I said, the people who pay minimum wages because it's all they can afford are the small businesses, who's owners arent exactly rolling in it. To Increase the minimum wage by 40% in one go would mean thier businesses, which operate on tight margins would not be viable, so they wuld be wound up- and everyone loses. I think your comments about ethical customers are off the mark, that isnt the principal of demand. On the issue of organic food I will only offer up a cartoon I have, of two cavemen where one says to the other "I don't get it, we eat organic, get plenty of exercise and the air and water is clean, but no one lives past 30!" The facts are that life expectancy is far higher than when organic was the norm. Personally I am not bothered where my food comes from, I come from a poor country where it is a luxury to have in a week what some people here eat in a day, so I am thankful for what I get. I realise that you are a very busy person, but it is a pleasure to talk to people like you and have a positive discussion.
e10 rifles- you could have said that any labour party coulld have won in 1992. We diddnt. 5 more years of hell (especially in cricket). It's pathetic to say that any party could have won the last 3 elections, because you know we cant test out your hypothesis. I also find it quite disturbing that you sum up the last ten years the way you have- t is disappointed you have such a warped opinion of the huge strides forward the country has achieved in the last 10 years. Like I said, ask USDAW.
It is strange that the so- called left never talks about Gay rights anymore- is it that when they agree with something they dont want to give the credit? It's funny that you stand with Galloway and his fascist thugs who oppose gay rights, and never let a chance to be antisemitic pass. Please dont accuse new Labour of losing our values, when old has gone overboard.
Gay rights have advanced massively under New Labour - you're right Arjun (although businesses can still discriminate in the provision of goods and services). The left sought to amend the recent Equalities Bill to this end, but was opposed by Government!
For the record, John McDonnell has voted for gay rights legislation every vote (14 since 1997). Gordon Brown has abstained on every single one. Ruth Kelly, the Equalities Minister, believes homosexuality is a sin - so don't lecture us on gay rights. It was the left that put the issue on the agenda in the 70s and 80s - look at the work that the GLC did when John was deputy.
Somehow suggesting that because John has occasionally shared an anti-war or workers' rights platform with Galloway he agrees with him on everything is a pathetic slur.
What's all this nonsense about categorising the britsh working class with labels, such as conservative with a small "c".
Political opinion and consciousness is related to objective conditions and not some silly generalisation of human nature.
Political consciousness will develop with events and will never remain static. For example, just as slavery was acceptable in the 18th century it is rightly regarded as abhorrant today.
Point is things are constantly changing, and if you apply this to the labour movement we see the same results: unions moving leftwards through exposure to blairite neo-liberalism and greater oppositon amongst party members.
Apply the same logic to the wider working class and you see the same results: increasing opposition to NHS privatisation and closures; opposition to war in middle east and decimation of manufacturing.
The fact that John addresses these issues is vital and will find a genuine echo amongst the labour movement and the working class.
This irritating attitude that somehow blairism/neo liberalism represents the present and the future is shortsighted especially if you look at the youth/worker movements across Europe and also the huge political upheavals in Latin America with the continent moving left on mass in opposition to this neo-liberal bullshit.
My advice to the younger comrades without trying to be patronising is: 1. Standing still is going backwards and 2. don't believe everything your lecturer or the media is telling you. There is a shift to the left, so join the bandwagon and support John in his campaign.
Mark, Worcester.
See- the left as usual twisting the facts. The Government has not opposed the new laws- they proposed it! You can't say look how awful New Labour are because Gordon Brown has abstained on all the votes- maybe there is a reason- the fact he abstains does not mean he is against it. Seeing as Alan Johnson approved the Bill and it will go ahead next year is proof of how much the Government works on Gay rights- you have brushed under the carpet the fact that the Catholic Adoption agency have threatened to close down if they cannot discriminate against gay couples. Of course we find thius abhorrent, but do you really want the children out on the streets? On the issue of Gay rights, almost all Labour MPs have voted in favour of them, regardless of left/ right position. Alan Milburn has voted strongly in Gay rights, and even Tony Blair has voted in favour of gay rights. I tho0ught this was one we could unite on and celebrate as a party, but it seems the left want disunity. And By the way- where does John McDonnell differ from george Galloway?
mark from worcester sums up the "Left" perfectly- "join the Bandwagon"
"Don't believe everything your lecturer tells you" well I knew those accounting lecturers were a bunch of Liars. My political views are my OWN and I dont need to see what everyone else is thinking to form my opinions. "standing still is going backwards"- yes if you're drunk (so I am told). The idea that follow where everyone else goes is dangerous- I thank god you are not a lemming. Finally is there a shift to the left? There isnt one in Europe, there isnt One in America, there isnt one in Europe, and lets not talk about Australia (vile racists) and in the UK, the Tories seem to be doing quite well in the polls. perhaps the final nail on that coffin is HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES RECENTLY?
I look forward to your replies- there is nothing worse than a party of renewal not debating it's direction.
If I recall correctly, when Arjun and I were at a Labour Students event with Alan Johnson he spoke about the services directive in relation to the Catholic adoption agencies. He essentially told us that he was prepared to see their adoption agencies shut for the greater good. I totally agree with him on that point. I just hope Kelly and her other Catholic/religious friends don’t derail the legislation further.
I am immensely proud of Labour’s achievements on LGBT rights and I know John is as well. I think it is important to point out Brown’s voting record on issues, especially as he aspires to be the next leader. As well as being proud, I am also not totally uncritical. Where the government and the left need to focus is the much forgotten and abused trans community. We need to keep pushing the boundaries, challenging the stereotypes and tackle the increase in homophobic attacks. A government prepared to tackle abuse and stereotypes which many people hold against the trans community, would be a bold and challenging move to the current consensus.
Jonathan Millins
Equalities Officer
Kent Labour Students
Mr McDonnell,
Isn't democracy wonderful? The right to vote out governments, disagree with your own party and campaign for what you want ...
So why, why on Earth did you oppose democracy for Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq???
And why on earth, Sham do you condone polcies which have led to over 600,000 dead Iraqis, 125 British soldiers, in a war which was illegal in the first place. It's not just Rumsfeld who should be in the dock.
Jonathan, Please refrain from Bringing KLS into this. The fact is that we need to find places for those Children- as I said, do you really want them on the street. Also, if we are talking about Voting rights, will someone please answer my question about John Mcdioneel whipping votes- seeing as he has been disloyal so often?
I dont know where you plucked the 600,000 death toll figure but it is another one from the Danish office for spurious statistics. And the war was not Illegal- that has been proven. Your're right in one way though- it isnt Just |Rumsfeld who should account for his actions- so should all those supporters of Saddam Hussein. I would direct you to the recent Survey of Afghan opinion.... that might make you see sense. It is truly Disgraceful that the British left wing stands up with Fascist Dictators and Thuggish murderers, the ones we have such a Proud tradition of fighting. We sttod up to Moseley in the East End, now Galloway is welcomed, this is truly sad.
John has been loyal to the real Labour Party and his constituents. John's followed the will of the democratic decisions passed by the sovereign policy-making body; party conference.
On the issue of KLS, I think it important to point out to readers that my comments on LGBT rights, come from somebody with a vested interest in the topic and thus possibly a skewed point of view. Its the honourable thing to do.
Iraq is a New Labour disaster and one that the neither the British nor Iraqi public will forgive Blair for. Foreign policy should not be about forcing change through illegal means. Rather it is about creating consensual opinion and working togther to resolve issues. You achieve more working togther in a multilateral framework, then you ever could by going it alone. Something which Blair now almost certainly realises.
re: johnny and Arjun.
There certainly is a move to left in Europe, with the French youth and workers rising up against the neo-liberal CPE. There was also massive protests in Greece about education reforms.
Italy as well saw Berlusconi go, with large votes going to the left parties in particular Rifondazione.
Perhaps not included in the NEWSPAPER HEADLINES that you study, but a reality none the less.
I also love the remark about forming your own opinions, as if the new realist agenda you spout has not spent the last 20 years expelling socialists and destroying internal party democracy.
But the funniest thing i've read all year is your Labour Students meeting with Alan Johnson. Seriously lads, there is something very creepy about youth members who spend their weekends listening to the likes of Alan Johnson.
Mark, Worcester.
ah Mark, I'm not just a youth member, but a student member as well...clearly a politics junkie! I'm currently seeking treatment.
Arjun,
I'm delighted to see that I'm not alone! Keep telling the truth, my son, and, in the immortal words of the former Tory Minister Michael Mates, "don't let the buggers get you down"!!!
Time to roll out a variation on an old campaign slogan, "Vote McDonnell, Get Cameron" ...
Hi Arjun mate
when I was a student and while I was between some other jobs I've been paid £3 odd an hour in full and part time jobs which was then approximately the minimum wage (as this was before it actually came in), i.e. the lowest legal wage. It was especially difficult to live on this amount when we had to pay for housing, bills, food etc and I had as now to keep my overdfraft within it's limit as it was not enough to pay any capital off. We didn't qualify for social housing so the proportion of our wages we had to pay for these things was pretty high. You always have to look at how much (if any really) disposable income people have left after necessary costs like these, my father in law was astounded at how much we actually paid for our mortgage, which we got as in Uxbridge (zone 6) it cost about the same as privately renting i.e. about five hundred a month.
As Sue Townsend points out in "The Queen and I" legality is expensive and our first flat was in fact a sub let as that's all we could find as the bloke who owned it couldn't afford to live there as he had split up with his girlfriend and had just taken a pay cut to change careers to be a paramedic so he had to rent a room from a friend up the road while we had the flat and it was pretty cold there poor bloke. At the time he couldn't sell the flat as it was under threat from the Channel Tunnel link road which at that time was possibly going to go through the New Denham/Uxbridge area.
I don't know if the food from your country is polluted - look at what Coca-cola are doing in India and Tesco In Kenysa etc (i.e. polluting local water supply)but otherwise the vegetables etc are probably quite nutritious if not grown with pesticides and if peopel don't eat junk food. However I do understand if it's in short supply or has got weevils or other parasites in it such as I've heard from a friend who did VSO the bread in Sudan often has) may be malnourised which is terrible and we should do all we can to stop it. I know from that soem people in the world have to eat insects when there's nothing else and this is beyond terrible. I take your point that you manage in any way you can, I have other friends from poor countries such as The Gambia and I''m well aware. But where we do have the means and a choice we shouldn't continue to polute the envuironment and risk helath through industruial farming -companies like Tesco could well afford to harvest beans form Kenya etc without polluting or using up local water supplies. As consumers we can vote with our feet, as with the Nestle boycott, see www.babymilkaction.org.uk.
Arjun - you are not very bright kid, but given time and some serioud research I'm sure you'll learn. All the best.
BTW I only joined the party in order that I can vote for the most left wing candidate so far JMcD. Rock on John.
Jon- still haven't answered my question. Also, if you are going to represent your views as those of an executive member of KLS please run it past us. Your basic position on Iraq is to have allowed Saddam to do as he liked- getting rid of him was not illegal, but if it was then the law is an ass.
Mark- there are many countries in europe, opponents of a few policies are not examples or a resurgence, if you look at Europe as a whole. if you mean george galloway as a reference to kicking out socialists, then I presume socialism has been redefined as self publicising dictator worship. Oh hang on...
And we diddnt spend the whole weekend speaking to alan johnson- Paddy tipping was there as well. ok fair point!!! No seriously, the late night drinking was what most people went for.
great line Sham. Sometimes its like banging your head against a brick wall, but the party needs renewal and this is part of the debate. and To anonymous- I might not be bright, but i am not a coward who hides behind anonymity. if you join the party and debate the future fine- good luck, but if, as you imply, you are an elder, then perhaps either senility is guiding your responses.
Helen, I agree that the minimum wage is low- it is the lowest possible wage. But it is a wage none the less- if employers could not afford the minimu wage, then they will sack staff- this is the opposite of what anyone wants. Lets be prudent about what what businesses can afford, because as I said, if the wage rate is too high, then jobs will be moved to a place where its lower- again the opposite of what we want. if I may stress again, the people who pay minimum wages are small business owners, who themselves are not high income earners themselves.
Can I make the point that GM food and food produced with pesticieds are what keep a lot of people in the world from starving, they dont have the luxury or choice. Some people eat insects or traditional reaons- I am sure in Central Africa there are peole saying "these french eat snails- eugh!" so I would not assume it is necessarly negative that people eat bugs- if it is cultural then we should respect their culture.
Moving the Debate on, can I ask people what they think about multiculturalism?
may I also make the point that my views expressed here, and indeed those of any member of KLS are their own, and not endorsed by KLS as KLS policies. No one speaking here is doing so in an official capacity.
Arjun: "I agree that the minimum wage is low- it is the lowest possible wage. But it is a wage none the less." Sounds like an argument for keeping the minimum wage low, or making it less to me!
im a blairite and just completed my masters in law, but even so i can see that the iraq war was illeagl under current international law. arjun is a total nutter to think otherwise! what on earth is he on about.
sadly, whoever used the 600,000 figure is way off...John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health (not a normally pro-Democrate university), put it at 655,000. its a real tragedy of human kind.
I heard from tv that Barack Obama the Democratic Senator from Illinios (who may run as for US President as first black candidate has now got "rock star status!" Don't think that QUITE the way British politicians are treated but rock on John anyway as the previous blogger writes.......! I think you are breaking through the media blackout as I heard on the mumvine that you were on Radio 4 this morning of the Queens' speech of course (I didn't hear all of the Today prog due to school) but the fact that people who are not political anoraks (though that is an unhelpful and untrue stereotype I've just used!(are starting to notice our campaign must be good!
I could explain the things I've written to Arjun for much longer if time permitted but the best thing is to read "Free Radical" the collection of essays by Tony Benn which will explain the left's point of view on most issues and how socialists should be more confident in themselves and stop apologising as the Blairtites and Tories seem to think we should. Either that or they start being stroppy with us (witness the stewards at conference in particular last year's Walter Wolfgang debacle...); they shouldn't need to behave in such a defensive way; it shows they are not confident in their position, we should rise above it and be confident in ours!
I don't think we should make personal remarks on this website note please previous blogger whatever we think of someone's views.
All I will say is that 1) the West may seem like the "promised land" to people from poorer countries (I know this from previous work with people who've just arrived in the UK) but it definitely has plenty of faults - all that glitters is not gold! Not to say that a lot of things aren't better here but things aren't always as they seem and if we improve things here it will have a far-reaching effect to poorer countries as I've just explained above with the examples of Tescos and Coca-cola. We have been seduced in the West into a cheap food policy and yet we are not healthier than before, childhood obseity to take just one example is increasing. I undertand that soem developing countries that are coming out of poverty but still have some way to go such as Mauritus from which I have a friend have unfortunately copied some of the West's unhealthy habits such as eating too much junk food and bottlefeeding their children instead of breastfeeding and thus they may unfortunately end up with higher rates of obseity and heart disease which are normally only common to richer countries, this kind of situation should be avoided through education and legis lation to stop unsrcupulous companies taking advantage of people's ignorance such as when tobacco companies push their products on the third world. Actually I was even astounded when I lived in Germany thirteen years ago that they still had cigarette adverts on billboards and that suntanning shops were everywhere despite the known skin cancer risk.
As for that hoary old chesnut of the left supporting dictators like Saddanm Hussein I've heard MPs including John speak in many a fringe meeting where they carefully explained that they didn't like the previous policy of containment but this did not mean that we should invade Iraq/ Afghanistan etc etc and end up with the situation we have now as they predicted accurately how things would deteriorate if they did.
Globalisation is of course happening in everything from importing food to negotiating world peace and we have a choice as to how we use the progress technology is bringing us, as with the choice to roll back climate change. We can fly to Iraq in a few hours, it's not on an alien planet so why can't we give the people there and their children the same rights and treatment we would give ourselves. We wouldn't have child Labour in US or UK factories so why is it acceptable for companies such as Tesco to use it in other countries like China or wherever it was in the recent case of some of their clothes being sewn by an eight year old. Ditto with workers' and trade union rights, otherwise we will allow the most unsrupulous multinational companies to continue to brainwash us with their protestations that we can't afford to buy ethically which we already can it just requires a bit of shopping around at the moment but will become easier as being "green" is easier now recycling etc is becoming mainstream, partly because many local councils realise they will be fined if they continue to use up landfill. Rubbish is also a health issue, waste from things like disposable nappies in landfill can pollute the ground water supplies. Already the water companies spend millions purifying our water because of the domestic pollution caused by things like so called "ordinary" houshold cleaning products so we are paying for it anyway in higher water bills before anyone says that ,mainstream chemical products such as bleach are cheaper. We should continue to campaign to have a decent length of working day (if we overwork we are less productive anyway and so on, on a global scale. I don't think we should accept what the present "establishment" tell us as if it's gospel which can't be changed, already the most successful companies to take one example will be those who don't exploit their staff and customers as happy staff are more productive and unhappy customers vote with their feet! We've realised we must change things on a global scale to prevent climate change -we can't leave other things unchanged as we are all )We can see this much more clearly now due to increases technology giving us so many improvements in transport,media caommunications etc, we should use these developments to help all the world's citizens as best we can, not just a select few as the Tories would. If things never changed we wouls still have things like bear-baiting in this country and the Tories I believe were against the introduction of seat belts and are still far too pro-smoking which I think should notbe done where it can harm other people, particularly children but basically we are not born smoking so should have a right to clean air!
I heard somewhere that the role of health visitors is now under threat, can someone enlighten me, surely not another braindead idea from the Blairites like all day casinos and the like, it does seem that they are making policy with only money on their minds like the Thatcherites did.
the GM argument Arjun puts is refuted by such as the soil association, no time to explain it now!
And I do of course appreciate we can get more food here than some in a week and I know that those in poor countries of course have the saem appetite so the are malnourished from not eating enough but the world does have the resources to provide enough food for everyone without having to go down the GM route, you will find if you look into it that it could have been done in a sustainable way without large profits being creamed off for the GM food companies at the expense of people's health
Hayley,
You're the real nutter. Call yourself a Blairite? With friends like you ...
The war was legal, moral and justified. Saddam's now on the end of a rope instead of running Iraq, torturing, murdering and raping his citizens.
The real tragedy is that so many people would rather he was still in power. He isn't thanks to Bush and Blair, and no thanks to those who stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the unspeakable George Galloway in opposing the liberation.
by the way I've just remembered that I was asked by some Mum's today when we were talking about who constitutes the people around the Blairites in power and the Balairites themselves" Are they all men?" - because they can see that things aren't set up to make the lives of stay-at-home parents (which tend to be female though not always of course) easier when a real Labour government could have done this; Yes the Blairites have done some things which of course the Tories wouldn't do even in their new liberal guise but at our school there is a wraparound childcare facility that many of us can't afford to use to give one example, yet we can't afford other childcare either. There are also issues such as one woman's ex-husband having a bad time at work due to not having proper employment rights which had a knock on effect on the whole family. The point they're making is that the Blairites are out of touch and through timidity have wasted some opportunities - there was nothing new in the Queen's speeh today - so we should listen to proper Labour people like John who still have the vision and experience a real Labour government requires before it's too late and we hand the next election to the Tories on a plate, ironically by letting them pretend they are green, family friendly and the rest which after all is traditional left territory, so what is wrong with letting the left speak out on it?
it seems like everything is in political doublethink, how about vote McDonnell get get McDonnell and an end to all this having to pretend the left aren't a legitimate and humanitarian faction of the party, after all the Tories don't deny their right wing. We shouldn't let the Blairites bully us like this any more. Socialism is fairer to more people and what's wrong with that to put it simply? It will work if we believe in it, if we aim high we'll get good results, if we play the race card and the politics of fear as the Blairites have done we'll get the dismal situation we are in now
Sham - you're seriously obsessed with George Galloway. Did he nick a girlfriend off you or something?
yet another message relating to what Arjun said and then perhap's we'll change the subject..I forgot to tell you that my Dad has a small business himself in surveying. For a long while he could only afford to pay for himself and was lucky to have a couple of volunteers, including a a trainee Surveyor for a while but when he could he began to pay them and he pays them above the min wage. He had a difficult time financially setting up the business even though he was very experienced in this line of work as at that time under the Tory goverment he only received £40 a week Enterprise Allowance which replaced his unemployment benefit of you've guessed it £40 a week and only now is starting to make enoough to live on. But he kept going and never needed to exploit any one although he did have to charge people a bit less than the going rate for surveying work at first until he became more established so it was hard at first as he only made a few hundred pounds a year in the first year. He also had two kids including me going into uni in these years so it was hard, (my Mum didn't earn much either in her part-time job). He also let the staff work flexibly, so it can be done!
I'm off to read John's alternative Queen's speech (see today's Guardian and the LRC website www.l-r-c.org.uk
yet another message relating to what Arjun said and then perhap's we'll change the subject..I forgot to tell you that my Dad has a small business himself in surveying. For a long while he could only afford to pay for himself and was lucky to have a couple of volunteers, including a a trainee Surveyor for a while but when he could he began to pay them and he pays them above the min wage. He had a difficult time financially setting up the business even though he was very experienced in this line of work as at that time under the Tory goverment he only received £40 a week Enterprise Allowance which replaced his unemployment benefit of you've guessed it £40 a week and only now is starting to make enoough to live on. But he kept going and never needed to exploit any one although he did have to charge people a bit less than the going rate for surveying work at first until he became more established so it was hard at first as he only made a few hundred pounds a year in the first year. He also had two kids including me going into uni in these years so it was hard, (my Mum didn't earn much either in her part-time job). He also let the staff work flexibly, so it can be done!
I'm off to read John's alternative Queen's speech (see today's Guardian and the LRC website www.l-r-c.org.uk
hayley- I am glad even people of limited abilities can get MAs. Have you ever read the methodology of the Hopkins report? Thought not.
helen- Hang on- John was against us getting rid of an organisation thak skinned 14 year olds? And on the issue of Organic food the choice is simple, it is up to preference. And what has the soil association got to do with food production around the world?
i agree with Sham- have any of the anti war protesters actually met with Iraqi victims of Saddam?
e10 rifles- if you can only resort to playground insults then I suggest thats where you belong.
That wasn't an insult, it was a question.
Oh, and look at the first sentence of your post if you want to see a playground insult.
Oops!
No, Herr Rifle, the gorgeous one has not finagled some broad from off my toes!
One final point, regarding Senor Sanders, I hardly think one Socialist out of a legislature of 100 is evidence of a tide of red sweeping the States - as McD seems to believe! :)
I think you will find that my question was relevant to what she said.
Sham- do you know all the new Democrat senators consider themselves to be republican, and one was more rightwing than her republican opponent. tial wave of left in america? hopefully one day, but that day is not today.
Arjun.
I wasn't just referring to George Galloway, but more like the expulsion of militant supporters and other lefts in the 80's. This included elected members of parliament such as Dave Nellist and Terry Fields.
You can also extend withchunting back to the 50's with the Gaitskill witchunts against the Bevanites.
Mark, Worcester,
...so itsnt a new Labour thing.
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