The
CND Alternative White Paper, which was launched this morning, is the definitive argument on why the Government should not waste billions of pounds on these ineffective weapons, which fulfil no role in creating a peaceful world.
Trident replacement is opposed by the TUC, thousands of Labour Party members and MPs, and by an increasing majority of the British public. A recent opinion poll showed 59% of the public opposed the replacement of Trident.
My concern is that despite the Labour leadership promising an open debate on the future of Trident, this debate has been pre-empted by statements from both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown in recent weeks endorsing the renewal of Trident.
36 Comments:
Instead of ranting about Trident, why not speak up about the real evil in this world - namely North Korea.
Seeing as you're so opposed to nuclear weapons, why didn't you back the Government when they took action against Iraq?
Seems to me like the left would rather every tin-pot dictatorship in the world had nuclear weapons while Britain and America disarmed ...
I think it's time to call back the moderators John - you have been infiltrated by the nutters! I would be v angry about this post if it wasn't so pathetic - please don't rise to the bait, comrades. And, yes,we do need a vote on Trident. Sham, just go away and read your Daily Mail.
I think it's time to call back the moderators John - you have been infiltrated by the nutters! I would be v angry about this post if it wasn't so pathetic - please don't rise to the bait, comrades. And, yes,we do need a vote on Trident. Sham, just go away and read your Daily Mail.
I cannot believe the Labour party is not debating this issue. Especially since it was strongly called upon at Conference to do so. We all have to lobby our MPs to get the Government to debate this before a seriously dangerous decision is effected. Even those who are for the replacement would surely have nothing against a debate.
Well, if I've got my noughts in the right place, then Trident will carry a death sentence for 320 million people in 4 submarines.
Ironically, given the prevailing winds, the biggest threat we are likely to face, nuclear-wise, is from the west. (and they'd probably disengage the delivery mechanism anyway :-(
How on earth can we ask Iran & Nth Korea to refrain when we cannot set an example?
When will they ever learn.....
I suggest, if possible, resisting the obvious temptation to bring back moderation. Sure, there's going to be the odd batty post like the one above from 'Sham', but I reckon the prospect of an open, free-flowing discussion will be bringing even more people to the site, and that has to be a positive thing.
I think a lot of people think we are stuck with Trident because of initiatives such as Peace through NATO etc and they don't have any concept of us not renewing it as they think incorrectly that we must renew it for self defence. Do you all remember the time of " nuclear free zones"? - the town of Crawley has a sign announcing it is one so we should all move there!
I say to my kids that fighting of all sorts will have been stopped by the time their grown up -well there's always hope. Pacifism is always an option and I'll take it. I went to a peace conference some time ago where we learnt that to have worldwide peace we have to start with ourselves i.e. make peace with the people around us which can be more difficult than it sounds! The Ministry for Peace website www.mfp.org.uk (I think it is without checking my favourites)is a great read on the whole issue of how we can work for peace in the world today. It might sound like fantasy to some but if we aim high we can get high but if we don't try and accept the pessimistic views of some that there's nothing we can do and we tacitly go along with the trident renewal then we will be failing ourselves. It's like the fact that we are not born smoking so we don't have to accept that it will always go on,fro one thing women didn't use to smoke much before the second world war did they as it was seen as a man's thing until the advertisers' glamourised it as Newsnight showed on one of their films. There is also a peace centre in Brighton, last time I passed by it which was at the time of last year's Labour conf in Brighton it had an informative window display explaining in detail exactly how the Guantanomo detainees were being tortured, if it was in London the Blairites would have probabaly tried to ban in like Brian Haw's display, my poster on the latter has had to be taken down as he has had to make his display smaller. This is CENSORSHIP and we are allowing these New Labour types to do this sort of thing in the name of proteting us from terror. But what kind of democracy are we if we can't even protest properly in front of our own Parliament? They always say that the greatest fear is fear itself so we should not give in to their paranoid agendas.
I don't want to sound like a stuck record on ethical issues but this Sat is the No Sweat Conference (Sweatshops, workers and international solidarity)at SOAS, see www.nosweat.org.uk, John speaking at it.
John how about doing a post explaining the difference between socialism and communism for those who get them confused; it is difficult as not much is taught about them in schools etc unless you do Politics or presumably History, although my school stopped at the Georgians and missed out the modern period altogether! (before the Natioanal Curriculum of course)
obviously socialism would not have a ruling elite in the way communism has done, you can expand!
I think a lot of people think we are stuck with Trident because of initiatives such as Peace through NATO etc and they don't have any concept of us not renewing it as they think incorrectly that we must renew it for self defence. Do you all remember the time of " nuclear free zones"? - the town of Crawley has a sign announcing it is one so we should all move there!
I say to my kids that fighting of all sorts will have been stopped by the time their grown up -well there's always hope. Pacifism is always an option and I'll take it. I went to a peace conference some time ago where we learnt that to have worldwide peace we have to start with ourselves i.e. make peace with the people around us which can be more difficult than it sounds! The Ministry for Peace website www.mfp.org.uk (I think it is without checking my favourites)is a great read on the whole issue of how we can work for peace in the world today. It might sound like fantasy to some but if we aim high we can get high but if we don't try and accept the pessimistic views of some that there's nothing we can do and we tacitly go along with the trident renewal then we will be failing ourselves. It's like the fact that we are not born smoking so we don't have to accept that it will always go on,fro one thing women didn't use to smoke much before the second world war did they as it was seen as a man's thing until the advertisers' glamourised it as Newsnight showed on one of their films. There is also a peace centre in Brighton, last time I passed by it which was at the time of last year's Labour conf in Brighton it had an informative window display explaining in detail exactly how the Guantanomo detainees were being tortured, if it was in London the Blairites would have probabaly tried to ban in like Brian Haw's display, my poster on the latter has had to be taken down as he has had to make his display smaller. This is CENSORSHIP and we are allowing these New Labour types to do this sort of thing in the name of proteting us from terror. But what kind of democracy are we if we can't even protest properly in front of our own Parliament? They always say that the greatest fear is fear itself so we should not give in to their paranoid agendas.
I don't want to sound like a stuck record on ethical issues but this Sat is the No Sweat Conference (Sweatshops, workers and international solidarity)at SOAS, see www.nosweat.org.uk, John speaking at it.
John how about doing a post explaining the difference between socialism and communism for those who get them confused; it is difficult as not much is taught about them in schools etc unless you do Politics or presumably History, although my school stopped at the Georgians and missed out the modern period altogether! (before the Natioanal Curriculum of course)
obviously socialism would not have a ruling elite in the way communism has done, you can expand!
On most issues John and I agree and this is the case on nuclear weapons. However, I see the solution based around an EU framework, which I’m not sure John would totally subscribe to. The government and the Tories are looking at defence all wrong. The future for Britain is not based anymore on being an imperial superpower or a stooge of Washington with an American dependent nuclear weapons programme, but rather working cooperatively with our European neighbours to resolve disputes.
We need to work hard with the incoming Germany EU Presidency and get the EU Constitutional Treaty back on the table. We need to resurrect the idea of an EU Foreign Minister, boost the power of the European Council and Council of Ministers to move from merely defining strategic interests and objectives to actual Council decisions, enhance the IGC protocol on structured cooperation and maintain the EU as a moderate civilian power with the economic clout.
Nuclear weapons are the epitome of narrow self interest, and they demonstrate a totally rejection of peaceful diplomatic solutions.
So much for an open debate! "new lrc member", whoever you are, the whole point of a debate is to have differing opinions, not that I'd expect someone who doesn't have the balls to use their own name to understand that.
Why don't you go away and campaign to keep another dictatorship in power.
Some people will never learn ...
Just a shame the government itself doesn't respect "open debate" on this issue, really.
There is, in my mind, no contradiction between opposing nuclear weapons in Britain and doing so in North Korea. And disarmament here shouldn't affect Labour's ability to promote a principled, anti-totalitarian and humanitarian foreign policy. Renewing Trident will hardly convince the "tip pot dictatorships" of the world to abandon their weapons - nor will a belligerent neo-conservatism.
Unless we intend to drop the bomb on North Korea, Iran, Pakistan etc. let's stop pretending the damn things make a difference, forget about wasting billions on building new ones, and start putting the money to good use. Like, oh I don't know, supporting democratic, secular forces around the world, or eradicating the poverty and injustice which allows such blatantly psychopathic regimes to gain power.
Dan,
You raise some good points in terms of supporting "democratic, secular forces" - I hope you support the democratic governments of Iraq and Afghanistan, and not the George Galloway/Alex Salmond line. Might one therefore assume that you're not in favour of the immediate withdrawal of Allied troops?
In terms of dealing with "blatantly pschopathic regimes", when Britain and America took action to depose such regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, I hope you supported them ...
Sham,
A precondition of your argument is that military intervention is either necessary or helpful. I think the example of Iraq has shown us what happens when foreign states, acting unilaterally and without international support, invade and occupy another country - all hell breaks loose. Since the Gulf War, the West's approach to Saddam has lurched from one extreme to another: from letting Hussein suppress a domestic uprising and imposing a ruthless emgargo to impoverish the Iraqi people, to launching a major and destructive attack without even the competence to plan ahead for if things weren't quite as rosey as the pro-war lobby assumed.
As for the current situation in Iraq, yes, I think we should be supporting the Iraqi trade union movement and all democratic, secular, non-sectarian groups - which obviously discounts support both for the murderous 'resistance' and those sections of the new governing elite responsible for attacking workers' rights, infiltrating the police for political purposes etc. Would immediate withdrawal help or hinder the effort to build a just, peaceful society in Iraq - that is the question, one I am not in a position to answer, but certainly one I am open-minded about and not coming to with an ideologically determined opinion.
Why do you support nuclear weapons? Do you support their use against, for instance, North Korea? How is the use of such obscenely powerful weapons, which murder without discretion for one's political views, compatible with a humanitarian foreign policy? If you don't support their use, then why should £25billion(?) be spent on Trident when there are so many potential, productive uses for that money - not just in Britain either, but all around the world (and in Iraq and Afghanistan too!).
Regards,
Dan
What really annoys me is the words "we should retain our nuclear deterrant to protet Britain from attack"
Nuclear weapons are offensive weapons of mass destruction. No nuclear weaponjry helped prevent either 9/11 nor 7/7 nor would they help protect us from any other attack either terrorist based or other forms of attack. The use of nuclear weaponry only results in one thing only and that is the killing of innocent civilians who have no responsibility for the actions of the regime who oppresses them (other than perhaps electing them).
I would rather see money instead invested in defense based weaponry that can prevent enemy nuclear weapons being able to reach us, and generally change our armed forces into a defensive force only. The money saved from that can be pumped back into the country so we can have decent public services that can be the envy of the world. And more importantly it would serve as a better example to other countries trying to get the nuke because we can talk to them without looking like hipocrites.
This is just ridiculous - North Korea is not a threat to anyone, indeed it is highly likely it would never have developed nuclear capacity if the US had stuck to the agreement struck in the 1990s. Instead, the US has been aggressive and worked against the framework of international law in the region.
Looking through Sham's blog it was interesting to see his immature parody of an Arctic Monkeys song basically taking the piss out of John. Is this what we can expect from New Labour now? Slagging off a man who does actually value the needs of British workers and believes in safeguarding our future and the future of our children. Sham keep it shut if you churn out rubbish such as that on your blog.
I shouldn't give him oxygen, if I were you, anonymous. It's the total lack of traffic on his own blog that shows how unpopular his views are.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, ...
I'd think my views are very popular amongst the democratically elected Iraqi and Afghan governments and their people, who regard anti-war Lefties like yourselves with complete and utter contempt.
Let me spell it out once more: Saddam and the Taleban would still be in power had your views held sway. End of story.
One more thing, you may not like the truth, but at least I've got the guts to "churn out rubbish" as you see it under my own name, which is more than can be said for the gutless few who've got it in for me.
If the Trident replacement is approved by parliament, Britain will have no moral authority to stop nuclear proliferation in Iran, South Asia and the Korean peninsular. The world needs fewer (preferably no) nuclear weapons, not more. I am sorry, John, but if this is approved by parliament, I will quit the Labour Party no matter the virtues of your candidacy. It is the last straw for those of us who have had to bear the Iraq War and other foreign policy disasters.
Duniya, the catastrophic results of British foreign policy can certainly be frustrating, but this is not the time to leave the Labour Party: in McDonnell we have a chance to elect a Leader who would scrap Trident and end our occupation of Iraq. Stay and fight!
There's an interesting debate on this here at Labourhome which comrades may wish to weigh in on!
Occupation?
The democratically elected Iraqi Government - the first one in their history - actually want British and American troops to stay.
They are there under a UN mandate and at the behest of the democratic Iraqi Government.
Sham - you are an utter waste of space. Please go away. Your views are breathtakingly ignorant of Middle East history. Not to mention offensive tothe people who are dying every day in Iraq and Afghanistan because of our disgraceful foreign policy.If Iraq is so fantastic now, why don't you do us all a favour and go and live there. And, by the way, this isn't anonymous
It's wrong that North Korea have tested nuclear weapons and that Iran began uranium enrichment, but that does not mean we continue. Just because your friend has started taking pot, doesn't mean you by default continue and stand to wreck your life. The money from Trident I think its £75bn or something would be better spent on our public services and ensuring better pensions. We need improvements in the NHS instead of cuts and the same for our education system. We don't need neo-cons creating a climate of fear over a country that does not and in the near future will not pose a threat to us. Also are you a Labour Party member? I don't know where you come from, but in the North-West you ask people at union meetings and at Labour clubs, the consensus is that we don't need Trident and instead we could do with the money to restore health services. If the New Labour cabinet cannot even sort things out at home then why should we continue to ride with Bush's crusade? And if you are a party member, then it is people like yourself who give us a bad name and prevent genuine Labour values being relayed to the cabinet.
Susan,
You're the waste of space, as anyone who lived under Saddam or the Taleban will attest to. I'm going nowhere. It's called freedom of speech, not that I'd expect a Ba'athist lickspittle like yourself to understand that.
You call my views offensive? On the contrary, your views and actions over Iraq and Afghanistan beggar belief. These two nations are now democracies, in case you hadn't noticed, in spite of ignorant individuals like you.
You want me to go live in Iraq? Well seeing as how you found the dictatorships pre-liberation as desirable, why didn't you go and live under Saddam or the Taleban. Great life for women back then ...
An election does not a democracy make, Sham.
And PLEASE don't label people who opposed war as 'Ba'athists' (let alone lickspittles! I suspect this is further evidence of your Galloway obsession...) - I don't hear your petitioning to go to war against Uzbekistan, does that mean you support boiling people alive? You're not heading the campaign to invade Zimbabwe... So you're a Zanu-PF supporter are you?
Choosing not to go to war with a country (an act which - inevitably - means killing people, irrespective of whether they support the government of that country or not - and having your own people killed also) is not the same as supporting it. I totally accept the argument that inaction is as bad as support, but the idea that mass bombing, ground invasion and occupation is the only way to act on any issue is a frankly terrifying one.
If you continue to set up the straw man of your opponents having been pro-Saddam or pro-Taleban (especially when there is considerably more evidence for the opposite to be the case), then your arguments will continue to be flawed, and debate with you pointless.
Re: Zimbabwe, Uzbekistan: I'm all in favour of democracy in those states. I utterly loathe Mugabe, which is more than can be said for many in our party - and one thing's for sure - if Britain and America did launch attacks on Harare and Tashkent I wouldn't be marching on the streets of London to keep those despots in power ...
As for debate with me being pointless, one might also suggest it would be fruitless debating with those who describe the Prime Minister as a "war criminal" and "liar".
You support democracy in Uzbekistan while supporting a foreign policy that props up its dictator?
And - while not wanting to go down the road of name calling; Tony Blair self-evidently did tell lies about intelligence on Iraq, and - according to lots of international lawyers (though, I concede not all of them) attacking Iraq was illegal, and therefore a war crime. It's not particularly helpful to chuck the abuse about, but it is a very different thing from accusing people who were fundamentally opposed to the Saddam regime (and, shock horror, actually opposed Saddam at the time of Halabja, rather than vetoing UN resolutions condemning the act) as being supporters: that is just the opposite of the truth.
One rule for some ...
fair play to sham. he's been sucked up by the neo-con machine that infiltrated our party. let him live in his dream world.
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